Talk:Transubstantiation

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 11, 2011.

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Needs a scientific view

As much as it's a theological topic, this article needs a science section to highlight the fact that this transformation has never been detected in controlled conditions, and what (if any) attempts have been made over the years. 203.59.80.62 (talk) 09:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You wil never find any Trans-form-ation because the article deals with Tran-substantia-tion. Please note that the philosophical difference between form (i.e. accidends), and substantia is the core of the doctrine of Transubstantiation. The doctrine of Transubstantiation dont deal with what is related with the form, which can be physically experimented. So there is no reason to mention a scientific fact that dont applies here. A ntv (talk) 10:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

According to Church teaching, the transformation cannot be detected in any conditions whatever, controlled or otherwise. Detection of any change in the appearances would contradict the teaching. Esoglou (talk) 10:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any anecdotes about controlled experiments, if any, might be amusing. However, since it's a theological topic, it's entirely about a belief -- and not science. The very idea of transsubstantiation is 0.00% (zero per cent) scientific, and so it would be a rather pointless addition to the article. To paraphrase user "A ntv" above: science doesn't have an answer to transsubstantiation because it is pure BS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.44.0.4 (talk) 21:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's curious that the above editor doesn't advert to the Mind-body problem. Can anyone say absolutely that the human mind is pure BS since the only evidence for it scientifically is the bio-electical activity of brain cells interpreted (by many) as the effect of a human mind on the individual human brain? That's why some people say there is no mind, but only brain activity: no mind has ever been detected in controlled conditions. In any case, observing this debate from a distance, I would say there is as much evidence for the existence of the human mind as there is for the transubstantiated presence or reality of Jesus Christ himself in the form of bread and wine. Neither of these seems to be a problem for Physics but for Metaphysics (you can't measure gravimetric intensity with a demographic study!—wrong tool!). Personally, I believe in the reality of the human mind apart from the human brain (Out-of-body experience and Near-death experience). I better quit here—don't get me started! It's amazing how much you learn from years of proof-reading other peoples' stuff. --LittleOldManRetired (talk) 23:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently LittleOldManRetired's views on the human mind got him blocked. --Λeternus ^(talk) 09:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, the user failed a sockpuppet check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.45.222 (talk) 13:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and such section could be very short, as in, "scientifically, no such thing exists". 2001:9E8:461B:D00:3878:8015:5E47:EB29 (talk) 21:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This dialogue should be edited into the article. I was reading the article, I understood nothing. I read this paragraph in the talk pages,now I understand what is the difference between catholics and protestants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.207.43.94 (talk) 17:59, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The "Figure of Speech" Argument

Knowing how Wikipedia dislikes original research, I wonder if there is any textual source for the following argument against Transubstantiation: that the bread and wine being Christ's body and blood is simply a figure of speech. Ancient Hebrew was very fond of high-flown metaphors and poetic exaggeration, as evidenced for example in Psalm 22:6:- But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Might not the same kind of figure of speech be intended in Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body? I don't know if it is original research or not. I certainly haven't encountered it anywhere else, despite looking. Can anyone else help? Nuttyskin (talk) 13:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not the lack of sources on this, it is the fact that there are literally a thousand years' worth of highly erudite sources. Very difficult to absorb and summarize without spending a lifetime of scholarly expertise. Which is why this article has to rely on good-quality tertiary literature. --dab (𒁳) 09:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

a thousand years' worth of highly erudite sources.

Yes, all arguing in favour of Transubstantiation. My point was, as William of Occam might have said, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one: in other words, this bread is like my body, this wine is like my blood.

Nuttyskin (talk) 14:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First canon of the Council of Trent

If anyone were to deny that the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is contained vere, realiter et substantialiter in the Sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist..but is in it only in signo vel figura or virtute, let him be condemned

sourced here (at minute 52:50). The original text written yesterday was without errors. However, the source is a WP:reliable source. I will replace it with the exact indication of the point of the video to which the citation has to be referred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.38.234.79 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

"Artifacts"

@Sundayclose has twice reverted my edits to this article which used the term "artifacts", now saying "It adds no meaning, just one word" and we need a consensus on the use of the term; I have been unable to find any other consensus discussion on the subject, so here we go.

From my earliest discussions, etc., of transubstantiation (several decades ago now), I have seen the term used, particularly in explaining the doctrine to non-Catholics (although the work cited was an insider's discussion of Aquinas). As Wikipedia is for everyone, not just specialists in a field, it seems beneficial to use a variety of vocabulary to broaden understanding. To be sure, I tend toward inclusion rather than exclusion, but it seems that breadth is the way to go here. Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 13:47, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's clarify. The first revert was because it was unsourced, so "twice reverted" to suggest that the very same edit was reverted because of content is misleading. The only real additional content your edit makes is the word "artifact". The lead already explains the concept, just without the word "artifact": "the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the 'eucharistic species', remain unaltered". Later in the article it is explained again. The word "artifact" is not needed except that it is your preferred word. It adds nothing to the article, for either Catholics or those who have no understanding of the term transubstantiation. Sundayclose (talk) 14:23, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please be careful to avoid personal attacks, or anything that comes close. The paragraph above is written to the writer of the one before that (uses "your" twice). A consensus discussion should be written to the community as a whole. JingleJim (talk) 02:39, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(An aside comment: Addressing a comment to the editor to whom I am responding is not a personal attack. If someone wants to call it a grammatical issue that's fine. But it's not even close to a personal attack. Someone can disagree with another editor and express that disagreement without it being considered a personal attack. I would appreciate if all who comment here would assume good faith, as I have with the OP. And note that I have not used "your" in this comment.) Sundayclose (talk) 11:24, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the word "artifact" is not appropriate since the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other sources handle it as "accidents" or "species". It should be noted that the article already says what the user wants to add: (However, "the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the 'eucharistic species', remain unchanged".) In total, the same thing is mentioned seven times in the article, that the species or accidents remain unchanged. Adding the same an eighth time would already be a lot. Rafaelosornio (talk) 04:41, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"From the earliest centuries..."?

So, from the first century? The second? When treating a subject so profound as well as contested there must be a more specific reference to a point in time than this generality. Wayniack (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]